This week, Joe Rogan sits down with Ben Lamm, the CEO and co-founder of Colossal Biosciences, the company making headlines for its ambitious goal: de-extinction. Forget Jurassic Park fiction; this is a deep dive into the real-world science, challenges, and profound implications of bringing back species like the woolly mammoth, the thylacine (Tasmanian tiger), and even the direwolf.

Lamm, whose background is surprisingly in software and building teams, explains how he partnered with genetics pioneer George Church to tackle these “moonshot” projects. They discuss the intricate process of piecing together ancient DNA, the cutting-edge genetic engineering involved (think CRISPR on steroids), the surprising discoveries along the way (mammoths were blonde!), and the complex ethical questions surrounding intervention in nature.

Here are the detailed key insights and takeaways:

1. The Mission: De-Extinction & Conservation

• Why Bring Them Back? Colossal focuses on species whose reintroduction could benefit their former ecosystems (like mammoths potentially helping restore Arctic grasslands) and on developing technologies applicable to conserving currently endangered species. It’s not just about novelty; it’s about ecological restoration and advancing science.
• Starting Point: Mammoth was first due to existing research by George Church and its potential ecological benefits (e.g., restoring mammoth steppe, permafrost preservation). Viral interest then brought dodo and thylacine researchers calling.
• Technology Sharing: A core principle is open-sourcing conservation-relevant technologies developed during de-extinction efforts, making them free for groups worldwide working to save endangered animals.

2. The Process: From Ancient DNA to Living Animal

• Finding the Code: It starts with finding ancient DNA, often fragmented and degraded, from sources like permafrost remains or museum specimens (sometimes hidden away in drawers!). This requires extensive sampling (like “Indiana Jones sh*t” in the permafrost) and complex AI/computational analysis to piece together the genome “jigsaw puzzle.”
• Closest Living Relative: The ancient genome is mapped against its closest living relative (e.g., mammoth vs. Asian elephant, thylacine vs. fat-tailed dunnart). Asian elephants are 99.6% identical to mammoths.
• Genetic Engineering: Using tools like CRISPR and advanced synthetic biology, scientists identify and make precise edits to the living relative’s genome to incorporate key traits of the extinct species (e.g., mammoth’s small ears, subcutaneous fat, hair/coat color genes edited into an Asian elephant cell line). They don’t need 100% identical DNA, just the key functional differences.
• From Cell to Animal: Edited cells are created. The nucleus is then transferred into an egg cell (Somatic Cell Nuclear Transfer – cloning) to create an embryo, which could potentially be gestated in a surrogate mother or, Colossal’s long-term goal, an artificial womb (exogenous development system).
• Proof of Concept: Woolly Mice: Colossal successfully edited key mammoth hair/fat genes into mice, creating healthy “woolly mice” and proving their multi-gene editing system works efficiently in one go.

3. Direwolves Are Real (and They’re Puppies!)

• The Project: Lamm reveals Colossal has successfully created three direwolf pups (Romulus, Remis, and Khesi), showing stunning photos and videos.
• The Science: Based on DNA recovered from a 13,000-year-old tooth and a 73,000-year-old skull (using the dense Petrus bone near the inner ear), they confirmed direwolves are closely related to grey wolves, not a separate lineage like jackals as previously thought based on limited data. They then engineered key direwolf traits into grey wolf cell lines.
• Characteristics: The pups are already large (45 lbs at 3 months, 80 lbs at 5 months). Based on the genome and skeletal remains, adult direwolves were 20-25% larger than grey wolves, stockier, with thicker skulls, larger craniums, and likely a white/grey coat (dispelling the red fur misconception). Their hunting behavior genes appear dormant but present.
• The Future: The current direwolves live on a secure 2,000-acre ecological preserve with 24/7 vet care. The goal is to establish a small, monitored social pack to study their behavior and potential for future rewilding efforts, if deemed ecologically appropriate and safe.

4. Rewilding & Ecological Impact

• Beyond De-Extinction: The projects are paired with conservation goals. Technologies are shared, and Colossal works with conservation groups, governments, and indigenous communities.
• The Yellowstone Example: Reintroducing wolves transformed the ecosystem, reshaping rivers as elk populations were controlled, allowing vegetation to recover, benefiting beavers, etc. This demonstrates the cascading effects of keystone species.
• The Red Wolf Crisis: Lamm highlights the plight of the Red Wolf (only 15 left wild in North Carolina, heavily inbred with coyotes) and Colossal’s work using non-invasive cloning from blood samples to create genetically diverse individuals (Hope, the world’s first cloned Red Wolf) offered free to conservation efforts.
• Generational Trauma (in Animals): Fascinatingly, studies with thylacine/cat/dog cutouts in Tasmania show native animals like wallabies still exhibit extreme fear responses to the thylacine shape, suggesting a deeply ingrained, potentially genetic, predator-avoidance memory hundreds of years after its extinction.

5. The Ethics & Future of Synthetic Biology

• Playing God?: Lamm argues humans constantly “play God” by altering ecosystems (deforestation, overfishing, climate change). De-extinction and genetic engineering are tools that can be used responsibly for ecological benefit and conservation, requiring careful consideration and collaboration.
• Speciation is Messy: The concept of a “species” is largely a human construct. Nature has fuzzy lines (polar bears and brown bears can produce viable offspring). Colossal aims for “functional de-extinction” – creating an animal that fills the lost ecological niche.
• Human Applications?: Colossal has mandated they won’t work on humans. However, the underlying technologies (gene editing, artificial wombs) are advancing rapidly globally. Lamm acknowledges the potential for human enhancement/modification exists (citing China’s CRISPR babies incident and Japan’s recent move allowing editing human embryos with animal genes) but stresses Colossal’s focus is non-human.
• The Pace of Change: Lamm emphasizes that synthetic biology, AI, and potentially quantum computing are converging, creating possibilities (and ethical dilemmas) that were science fiction just years ago (e.g., microbes that eat plastic, resetting cellular clocks, genetic therapies).

Final Thought:

Ben Lamm offers a glimpse into a future where biology becomes programmable. Colossal’s work, while focused on bringing back extinct marvels and aiding conservation, sits at the bleeding edge of technologies that will fundamentally reshape our relationship with nature, health, and perhaps even ourselves. It’s a world of incredible potential and profound responsibility.

Learn more about Colossal’s work: Colossal.com and @ItIsColossal on YouTube and X.

Until next time,
The Podcast Notes Team