Get ready for a raw and intense journey into the world of deep undercover work. Joe Rogan recently sat down with Scott Payne, a former FBI agent who spent 25 years infiltrating some of America’s most notorious groups, including outlaw motorcycle gangs like the Outlaws, white supremacist organizations like the Aryan Nations and The Base, and even factions of the Ku Klux Klan.

Scott shares harrowing, often unbelievable stories from his career, detailing the psychological toll, the complex relationships formed, the tradecraft involved, and the moments where things went terrifyingly sideways. He pulls back the curtain on the operational realities, the ethical dilemmas, and the sheer human grit required to live a double life in the name of justice.

This conversation is a gripping look at a world most of us only see in movies, filled with insights into criminal psychology, undercover techniques, and the personal cost of operating in the darkest corners of society.

Content Warning: This episode discusses violence, drug use, hate groups, and potentially disturbing scenarios.

Here are the detailed key insights and takeaways:

1. Getting Started: From Bully of Bullies to Undercover

• Early Life: Grew up in South Carolina, played sports. Describes himself as a “bully of bullies,” always looking out for the underdog. Bounced in college, learning “gift of gab” and fight techniques.
• Path to Law Enforcement: Took a criminal justice elective in college and was hooked. Briefly considered being an attorney but realized his direct personality wasn’t suited for defense or prosecution. A ride-along with local cops sealed the deal.
• Fascination with Undercover: From early on, fascinated by undercover work, particularly in the context of biker gangs (influenced by movies, regardless of cheesiness). Mentored by experienced officers, including a former World’s Strongest Man competitor who had done biker gang task force work.

2. The Outlaws Case: Deep Infiltration & Tradecraft

• Making Contact: Started by hanging out in bars frequented by the Outlaws in Brockton, Massachusetts (a rough town). Used his natural ability to connect (“working the bar,” telling jokes) to get noticed.
• Building Rapport: Developed relationships over time, sharing (fabricated) stories, drinking with them (within limits, needing to maintain awareness and recall), and participating in activities. Emphasized mirroring and finding common ground.
• The “Test”: Recounted a tense moment in a basement where he was unexpectedly stripped naked and searched for a wire by suspicious members. Maintained composure despite the danger.
• Full Patch & The “Why”: Eventually earned the trust to become a prospect and then a full patch member. He had to constantly navigate the complex social dynamics and prove his loyalty while gathering evidence.
• Cameos & Secondary UCs: Explained the use of “cameo” undercovers – agents brought in briefly for specific interactions or deals to support the primary UC’s narrative.
• Tradecraft Examples: Using burner phones, creating believable backstories (site surveyor for Texas investors), managing separate identities, rigging audio/video recording devices (and the anxiety when they might fail), dealing with communication challenges (walkie-talkies, Nextels).

3. The Psychological Toll & Human Element

• Similarity & Connection: Acknowledged the scary similarity between himself and some of the members, particularly Scott Town, with whom he formed a genuine, albeit complicated, bond. Found common ground in background and personality.
• Emotional Cost: Described the immense stress and the feeling of being constantly “on.” Recounted forgetting his own middle name during an adrenaline dump when confronted. Shared the story of Scott Town calling him after the bust, expressing betrayal but also a strange camaraderie (“I love you brother”).
• Decompression & Support: Highlighted the critical need for psychological support (Safeguard program) and decompression after long-term operations. Described being a “ghost man” at home, unable to connect with his family after intense periods undercover.
• Rationalizing the Work: Framed undercover work as building relationships you intend to betray, a necessary evil for gathering evidence against dangerous individuals. Acknowledged the ethical weight but focused on the larger goal of justice.
• Humor as a Coping Mechanism: Uses humor and storytelling (even about dark events) as a way to process the intensity and absurdity of the situations.

4. Bizarre & Dangerous Encounters:

• The Sacrifice Ritual: Detailed a disturbing “hate camp” event involving pagan rituals, white supremacist ideology, and the botched sacrifice of a ram (mistakenly called a goat initially), complete with chanting, blood drinking (from a cup, not directly), and members taking acid.
• Murder-for-Hire Plot: Described infiltrating a plot where individuals wanted him to murder a child victim of molestation to silence them before a trial. He worked with the FBI to stage interactions and gather evidence, ultimately leading to arrests.
• The Naked Truth: The story of being stripped naked in the basement by suspicious Outlaws while wired for sound and video.
• Pinky Break: His “friend” Scott Town breaking his pinky in a fit of rage during a car ride in a snowstorm. Scott had to de-escalate the situation while injured.
• Carjacking & Cartel Connections: Discussed the overlap between biker gangs and other criminal enterprises, including working cases involving carjackings tied to Mexican cartels.

5. Systemic Issues & Observations:

• Defund the Police Impact: Believes the “defund the police” movement and subsequent negative perception have made recruiting and retaining officers (especially for undercover work) extremely difficult in smaller departments. Resources shifted to running informants instead.
• Generational Differences: Notes that different generations approach crime and law enforcement differently.
• The “Why”: Believes many join these groups out of a need to belong, finding camaraderie and identity they lack elsewhere, often stemming from broken homes or societal alienation.
• Online Radicalization: Discussed the role of online platforms (Gab, Telegram, etc.) and encrypted apps in fostering hate groups and radicalizing individuals, making investigation more challenging.

Final Thought:

Scott Payne’s account is a stark reminder of the hidden battles fought by undercover officers and the complex, often morally gray world they inhabit. His stories are both thrilling and deeply unsettling, showcasing incredible bravery, psychological fortitude, and the profound personal cost of living a lie to dismantle dangerous organizations. It’s a rare glimpse behind the curtain, revealing the human dynamics within extreme ideologies and the challenges faced by those tasked with infiltrating them.

Find Scott Payne’s book, “Codename: Pale Horse,” for the full story.

Listen to the full JRE episode here: [Link to Episode]

Until next time,
The Podcast Notes Team