Hey everyone,

This week on the Huberman Lab podcast, Dr. Andrew Huberman sits down with Dr. Karolina Westlund, an animal ethologist and expert in animal behavior. This episode is a must-listen for any pet owner, or anyone fascinated by the animal kingdom, offering a deep dive into the relationship between humans and domesticated animals, focusing on evidence-based ways to optimize our pets’ mental and physical well-being.

Dr. Westlund challenges many common assumptions about how we interact with our pets. Do they really enjoy that vigorous petting? Is that tail wag always happy? She explains the best ways to interact based on ethology – the study of animal behavior in their natural environment, considering their fundamental drives and unique neurological needs stemming from their lineage (often tracing back to wolves for dogs). She provides actionable, science-grounded protocols to satisfy these drives, improving not only your pet’s life but your relationship with them. They discuss dogs, cats, parrots, and even touch on horses, fairness, and the complexities of zoo conservation.

Forget speculation and training anecdotes; this is about understanding the species your pet evolved from to truly meet their needs.

Here are the detailed key insights and takeaways:

Why Ethology Matters for Pet Owners: Understanding the natural behaviors and evolutionary history of a species (like the predatory sequence in dogs or the solitary hunter nature of cats) is crucial for providing appropriate care and enrichment, preventing problem behaviors that often arise from unmet needs.

Horses: Vigilance & Touch: As prey animals, horses are highly vigilant and perceive the world differently. Their relationship with humans often involves the most physical contact (riding), requiring understanding subtle cues. They need space and careful introduction to touch. Single housing and rapid feeding (vs. 16+ hours of foraging) can cause issues.

Dogs: A Spectrum of Drives:

• Sensory World: Primarily driven by smell (olfaction), but vision and hearing are also important. Sniffing is crucial enrichment.
• Predatory Sequence: Different breeds have been selected for different parts of the wolf hunting sequence (orient -> eye/stalk -> chase -> grab-bite -> kill-bite -> dissect -> eat). Understanding which part your breed emphasizes helps meet their needs (e.g., terriers need to “kill,” retrievers need to “grab/carry,” hounds need to “sniff/chase,” pointers need to “orient/point”).
• Nose Work: A growing dog sport tapping into the sniffing drive. It’s highly beneficial, potentially regulating arousal and calming anxious or semi-depressed dogs.
• Dominance vs. Leadership: Dr. Westlund debunks common dominance theories based on touch or walking position. These are often misinterpretations of fear, anxiety, or learned behaviors. Focus on clear communication and establishing yourself as a reliable leader (access to resources) rather than a “dominant” figure. Social roles (leader, controller) exist, but linear hierarchies are context-dependent.
• Fairness & Social Learning: Dogs (like Capuchin monkeys) show a sense of fairness and pay attention to how resources are allocated among others. They also learn via social observation.

Cats: Solitary Hunters with Social Needs:

• Evolution: Evolved as solitary hunters but aggregate in loose social groups. They hunt and eat alone.
• Needs: Require appropriate outlets for their full hunting sequence (stalk, chase, grab, kill – even if it’s a toy). Mutual scent marking (rubbing) is important for group cohesion. Covering waste is likely about reducing infection risk.
• Reading Cats: Pay attention to subtle cues. Early life experiences (handling between 2-8 weeks) heavily shape sociability towards humans. Understand their need for perceived safety before engaging. Don’t assume petting is always welcome. Offer consent tests (brief petting, then pause to see if they re-initiate).
• Common Issues: Territorial urine marking vs. elimination problems (often linked to pain/discomfort with the litter box). Separate food/water from the litter box.

Interacting with Animals:

• Consent Test: Offer brief interaction (like a scratch in a preferred spot) and then pause. Let the animal re-initiate to show they enjoy it. Avoid imposing primate-style hugging/patting, which can feel like restraint.
• Slow Stroking: Deliberate, slow stroking can be calming and diffuse tension, tapping into co-regulation (calm human helps calm animal). Fast, rapid patting can be aversive.
• Reading Body Language: Pay attention to the whole animal, not just one cue (like a tail wag, which can mean many things). Look for subtle signs of stress or relaxation (ear position, body tension, eye shape – soft vs. hard). Lateralization exists (left gaze/wag often negative emotion, right gaze/wag often positive).
• Facial Expressions: Dogs do have facial expressions, but use different muscles than humans, leading to misinterpretation. Gross body language is often easier for humans to read correctly.

Enrichment & Meeting Needs:

• Cognitive Work: Animals, especially working breeds, need mental challenges beyond just physical exercise. Food puzzles, training games, nose work provide essential cognitive stimulation.
• Scatter Feeding: Hiding food or using puzzle feeders mimics natural foraging and provides enrichment compared to simply eating from a bowl.
• Chewing: A natural, innate drive. Provide appropriate outlets (e.g., horns for dogs).
• Safety First: An animal must feel safe before it can engage in play, exploration, or even eating. Fear inhibits other behaviors.

Other Insights:

• Anthropomorphism vs. Anthropodenial: Be careful not to project human thoughts/motivations onto animals, but also don’t deny that they do have rich emotional and cognitive lives and share commonalities with us. Find the middle ground.
• Early Life Matters: Experiences during critical developmental periods (e.g., first 14 weeks for cats, early months for dogs) significantly shape temperament and sociability.
• Neutering: Cultural practices vary widely (forbidden in Norway unless medically necessary). Neutering impacts hormones and can increase fear/reactivity in some males. Vasectomies/tubal ligations exist as alternatives to preserve hormones while preventing reproduction. Chemical castration is another (reversible) option. Discuss pros/cons with a vet for your specific animal.
• Zoos: Evolving from menageries to conservation hubs (INC2 vs. XC2 conservation). Housing needs vary drastically by species. Ethical considerations remain complex.

Final Thought:

Dr. Karolina Westlund provides a crucial framework for understanding our pets not just as companions, but as complex beings with rich evolutionary histories and species-specific needs. By moving beyond assumptions and applying principles of ethology, we can provide more appropriate care, foster better communication, reduce problem behaviors, and ultimately build stronger, more fulfilling relationships with the animals in our lives. It starts with observation, empathy, and respecting their unique ways of being.

Find Dr. Westlund: You can learn more about Dr. Westlund’s work and approach through various online resources related to animal ethology and behavior consulting. https://illis.se/en/

Until next time,
The Podcast Notes Team